(Poll) God Or Government?

I do not ask god for things or events..

only ask for strength to endure the things that do occur

Richard Dawkins seems to have created a god in Dawkins' own image. I don't want to wind up where he or Christopher Hitchens are going. Thank you Jesus!

Rank if you can offer passages in the old testement to refute him do so. I will refute yours with passages to show he was right.

I don't want to wind up where he or Christopher Hitchens are going.

Are you referencing that imaginary place called hell?

The Greek word Hades is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word Sheol.

Sheol, the term in Hebrew means a grave or pit, was the place where the dead gathered, as thought by the early Hebrews, and was believed located beneath the earth. The dead were thought to lead a conscious shadowy existence there, they were not in torment, but had neither hope nor satisfaction.

Additionally, some scholars interpret the word to mean garbage\trash pit. Where refuse was taken to be burned.

Just another example of the perpetual fallibility of the Bible.

I have never cared whether people believe in me or not. I care about what people do, not what they believe. Praying to me or to anyone will not save you before or after death. You don't like what your government is doing, I advise you to change it. It's up to you, not me.

Rank if you can offer passages in the old testement to refute him do so. I will refute yours with passages to show he was right.

JV Simp,

No, I'll stick to the New Testament where GOD is revealed as the Lord Jesus Christ Even if GOD were all of those things mentioned by a GOD hating atheist, (which of course He is not: for GOD is Love) He would still be GOD, and you would still be an enemy of GOD destined for Hell. I urge you to repent.

BlueArcher,

Are you referencing that imaginary place called hell?

No I wouldn't waste my time. I'm referencing the real place spirits of men go after this life who have not accepted the forgiveness of a Savior who died on the Cross for their sin.

Sheol, the term in Hebrew means a grave or pit, was the place where the dead gathered, as thought by the early Hebrews, and was believed located beneath the earth.

"A pit beneath the earth." Do you read what you write? Yes, there are many pits with many people in them. Where as you said, "the dead are gathered" who have not accepted Jesus Christ.

Additionally, some scholars interpret the word to mean garbage\trash pit. Where refuse was taken to be burned

Yes, it is known as Gehenna in the New Testament. As referenced by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself multiple times See Luke 16:23-24. But you said it, it is the place where those who 'refuse' to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel are burned. Tormented in flames, forever.

Just another example of the perpetual fallibility of the Bible.

Just another example of people reading what unbelieving so-called 'scholars' have written. And not reading the New Testament for themselves.

I don't think of God as like some kind of wizard up in the sky that is going to swoop down on me and make me a millionaire although it could happen to me and if it did I would certainly give God all the credit.

I do feel like God protects me and gives me energy that makes my life wonderful. Being dependent on God goes well with living close to the earth. I like it and I don't expect you to change to my way. You might like me in spite of my beliefs and you might not like me.

I have trained myself to look to God to help me there is just something about relying on God. I think God can influence governments but that does not mean God is operating the government and that there aren't people trying to do good things and also people who do not care about anything but money and power.

I can go for the we are all one stuff sometimes I know we are all in this together but I believe we are all individuals as well and as long as we do not cause harm to others we ought to be able to live as we see fit. Government does not allow it but God does and that is why i like God better. God does not command but allows.

Richard Dawkins seems to have created a god in Dawkins' own image.

More like he's described god to a tee!

. I'm referencing the real place spirits of men go after this life who have not accepted the forgiveness of a Savior who died on the Cross for their sin.

Yes, the imaginary place. Imaginationland maybe?

First off -- Jesus plan will come to pass. Now knowing this we understand a time is coming no matter how hard we try to keep our country / world from economic collapse, from wars, terrorism, climate change we will not be able to. Why because Jesus has allowed it, because we have turned our back on him. Jesus says since you would rather worship the creature then the creator he will give you over to strong delusion that may believe the lie that satan is telling you.

Jesus CONTROLS ALL, but satan rules the world. Jesus holds satan to a controlled rule. As you will see after the restrainer is removed. It will be hell on earth during those 7 years. People will be screaming peace, but it will be a false peace.

All I can say is you should pray always that you are worthy to escape the things that are coming to this earth and to the people who dwell here.

Time is running short people. All the signs of the Lord Jesus Christ Return are here.

I'm referencing the real place spirits of men go after this life who have not accepted the forgiveness of a Savior who died on the Cross for their sin.

The entire concept of "died for our sins" is a Catholic fabrication. It is unsupportable as the below link shows:

Died for Sins?

Where as you said, "the dead are gathered" who have not accepted Jesus Christ.

You missed the point. It has nothing to do with Jesus since it was from Judaism centuries prior to the idea of Jesus. Get it?

As referenced by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself multiple times See Luke 16:23-24.

Incorrect. Luke was written as an allegory @ 90 years after the supposed death of Jesus by an individual that never met Jesus.

...it is the place where those who 'refuse' to repent of their sins.

Refuse meaning trash morphed into "refuse" meaning deny? Hilarious.

And not reading the New Testament for themselves.

The New Testament is so full of errors and contradictions as to be absolutely unreliable as a historical source. Only the uneducated believe it to be factual.

New Testament Problems

NT Corruption

It is one thing to believe via ignorance. That continued belief is pitiable when presented with the facts.

Intellectual laziness isn't your problem since you participate in NV but to think that you cannot manage to overcome childhood indoctrination is puzzling.

Intellectual laziness isn't your problem since you participate in NV but to think that you cannot manage to overcome childhood indoctrination is puzzling.

bluearcher,

I wanted to address this issue from a former "insider's" perspective.

I was raised in the Bible Belt and it took over 4 decades to overcome all of my childhood indoctrination ....and I am a skeptic at heart about almost everything.

Although I didn't agree with the abusive "Christian" attitude toward others, especially women, I was indoctrinated to "accept" it as my lot in life. I was told I should be "thankful" to the Lord for my every "adversity" and suffer silently so I could be "rewarded" in "Heaven".

I could never understand what any of this had to do with the "Golden Rule" and why it was completely ignored in favor of controlling and abusing others so eventually I left "organized" religion, but still believed in Jesus and his message of love. I cherry-picked the Bible to support my viewpoint that I should "love" everyone. I found this more difficult as I was exposed to murderers, rapists, child molesters, and opened my eyes to the ways of the world, and harm done to it by the ones claiming to be "Christians".

Thanks to the internet, I have learned much about the origins of religions, including Christianity and how and why they were created by man. I feel supremely stupid for being duped into buying into any of it in the first place. I feel regret for having wasted decades of my life being controlled and abused in the name of "Christianity".

I am now extremely thankful that I have broken the cycle of self abuse that I was indoctrinated into as a child. I speak from experience that this can be a very difficult thing to do, and for some people it may be impossible. However, I will never ever tolerate being forced to live under that type of system again for the rest of my life or have religion of any brand become the law of the land. The religious can self-abuse all they want, but leave me and mine out of it.

I could never understand what any of this had to do with the "Golden Rule" and why it was completely ignored...

Did you visit the "Died for Sins" link? It logically destroys the concept of a loving god and the accident of creed via birth locale.

I feel supremely stupid for being duped into buying into any of it in the first place. I feel regret for having wasted decades of my life being controlled and abused in the name of "Christianity".

With respect, were your parents educated enough to realize the duplicity of indoctrination as a child?

Faith in the face of evidence and dismissal of facts as a rational adult is an unacceptable contradiction to me. As you stated, the internet offers limitless options of research and knowledge. There is no longer a reasonable excuse for belief without proof.

bluearcher,

I was raised in the Bible Belt. My grandfather, who never went to church at all that I know of, was assigned one in his obituary. However, it was evidently not the "right" one since a member of a different church told his daughter that she was "sorry" that her father went to "Hell". It was a given that you attended some church in order to be "accepted" as some kind of "believer" whether you actually believed or not. It was also a given that you would be criticized for not following the "true" faith by members of different congregations.

I spent years sincerely searching for the "true" religion among the various brand names. I never found it. I found judgment, hate, and intolerance among the religious minded... and still do. I don't need that in my life. I am far happier without it which is why I will tolerate the "right" of other people to self-abuse, but I will not tolerate them abusing me (or anyone else) in the name of their religion.... especially in the name of their Supreme Being's "love".

The entire concept of "died for our sins" is a Catholic fabrication. It is unsupportable as the below link shows:

You link me to an atheist lecture? Give me somebody credible. You really don't expect to believe anything an atheist has to say about God, the Bible, or Jesus Christ, do you?

Jesus Christ did absolutely die for your sins and was resurrected after 3 days according to the Scripture.

Incorrect. Luke was written as an allegory

Oh really? What is it an allegory for? What does it signify when the rich man says "I am tormented in this flame"? I can't wait to hear this.

The New Testament is so full of errors and contradictions as to be absolutely unreliable as a historical source. Only the uneducated believe it to be factual.

There are no errors or contradictions in the Bible. The errors and contradictions exist only in the minds and hearts of those who refuse to believe what is written.

It is one thing to believe via ignorance. That continued belief is pitiable when presented with the facts.

Jesus Christ said "I am the Truth, . . . no one comes to the Father but by Me " I have found that to be absolutely true. Experiencing Truth trumps what people think are "facts".

Intellectual laziness isn't your problem since you participate in NV but to think that you cannot manage to overcome childhood indoctrination is puzzling.

The solution to this anomaly is quite simple: GOD Is Real! I mean, He's Real! Did I mention, GOD is REAL? He is a Person you can have a relationship with. All that is required is faith.

Well, BlueArcher, I have enjoyed this exchange. I'll give you the last word if you like. My work is done here. "Auf wiedersehen".

@Rank on Rank,

You link me to an atheist lecture? Give me somebody credible. You really don't expect to believe anything an atheist has to say about God, the Bible, or Jesus Christ, do you?

"Atheist" doesn't mean "liar". I created atheists the moment I created free will. And I love atheists too. They are neither better nor worse than believers, and you should not disregard them simply because they do not share all your beliefs.

In particular atheists often enjoy pointing out that, given the 10,000 or so Gods dreamed up by humanity, you share their belief that 9,999 of those Gods are false. Likewise the fact that someone claims to be God, or writes in the name of God, is no doubt as repugnant to them as it is to you.

Since repugnance has never stopped me, I should explain that the sins that offend me have nothing to do with some shepherds' yarn about snakes that eat dust and the sky being blue because it's full of water. The sins that offend me are your personal, temporal sins - the occasions upon which you turn your back on your fellow humans, as you do here with Atheists, when, from fear, you disregard the only rule that matters - the golden rule.

As for the veracity of the Bible - if the events of the gospels actually occurred then there would be many corroborating accounts in the thousands of books that have passed down to you from those times.

In fact there are none. There are no records of any event of the lives of Jesus or his disciples outside the gospels. There are no records of any political movement similar to the one described, nor of any of the miraculous events reported in the gospels. None of the contemporary priests or philosophers - Philo being the most prominent - give the events of the gospels a single reference in the many thousands of pages that survive. No reactions, no comments, no notice whatsoever.

The gospels themselves are not eyewitness accounts, originating many decades after the purported events. They were written under pseudonyms by individuals who remain anonymous for purposes that are likewise undocumented and cherry-picked at Nicea for political purposes many centuries after their origination.

Nevertheless you are quite correct to believe that faith overcomes all these objections. It should also overcome your objection to the proposition that your Lord and Saviour is speaking to you directly on Newsvine. Therefore listen up:

Your beliefs do not trump the beliefs of others. People who prefer evidence to faith are your brothers and their belief in the primacy of evidence is a practice you should treat with respect. That's their path. You have yours. They will not turn from theirs any more than you will turn from yours. Love them for who they are, understand them and their path, let the conversation enrich your life and stop sinning against them through disrespect.

You link me to an atheist lecture? Give me somebody credible.

Typical disrespect for the facts. Instead of refuting the factual material presented you disparage the messenger.

Jesus Christ did absolutely die for your sins and was resurrected after 3 days according to the Scripture.

Jesus Christ is not even contained in the historical record. And believing that an individual rose from the dead based upon the writings of individuals with less knowledge than a 5th grader is intellectually dishonest. I'm sure you are awaiting Santa Claus also.

What does it signify when the rich man says "I am tormented in this flame"?

Why does fiction signify anything beyond tales of morality not necessarily based upon fact? Anyone viewing the Bible as factual is not educated in regard to the origins of the text.

There are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.

Now you are just being obtuse. The links I provided are beyond dispute. Like a child you stick your fingers in your ears and scream "la la la la la" to irrefutable factual evidence. If you cannot accept even the most basic of facts you are hopeless.

Experiencing Truth trumps what people think are "facts".

Yeah, self induced hormone release within the brain is so "Truthful".

GOD Is Real! I mean, He's Real! Did I mention, GOD is REAL? He is a Person you can have a relationship with. All that is required is faith.

Idiotic. There is not one single shred of evidence in the history of the world for any god. Regardless of your indoctrinated, uneducated, wishful, delusional thinking.

It is unfortunate that an adult in the 21st century can be so deluded as to cling to Bronze Age thinking with the facts so prevalent.

@bluearcher,

If you cannot accept even the most basic of facts you are hopeless.

It's not that he can't. It's that he won't. He chooses to follow his faith despite the fact that, as you rightly point out, his holy book is riddles with inconsistencies and horrors. That doesn't mean you have to violate the CoH here.

Yeah, self induced hormone release within the brain is so "Truthful".

Is his hormone release from his faith really all that different than yours from your science?

All that is required is faith.

Idiotic. There is not one single shred of evidence

You realise that is non-sequitur, right?

As to my existence, you need only regard me as a virtual person. And in this my identity is neither more nor less concrete than your own. If I don't exist, neither do you, because like me you are merely a convenient fiction, an abstraction for the behaviour of a particular sack of nerves, muscles and bones. You are a story with a face. I am a story with many faces. Let's agree to get along.

No, I'll stick to the New Testament where GOD is revealed as the Lord Jesus Christ Even if GOD were all of those things mentioned by a GOD hating atheist, (which of course He is not: for GOD is Love)

Oh how nice just ignore half of your religious text. No wonder your so faithful, God gave you the ability to cherry pick his bible. Something else to consider is that god's prophets wrote the bible, not god hating atheists. Yes it is easy to mistake what with all the calls to kill and hate, but what can you do?

From the new testament just for you. Seems to me the old testament is still valid based on this yes?

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He would still be GOD, and you would still be an enemy of GOD destined for Hell. I urge you to repent.

I am an enemy of the Jewish God? You sir are a second class citizens to him. You can continue your back of the bus trip to heaven now. I urge you to get a lobotomy, since it would improve your social skills when dealing with others.

Properly speaking, answering someone's prayers is doing my work. If you want God to help you out, pay it forward.

So that means I'm relying on GOD 100% of the time.

And considering prayer fails 100% of the time, you must rely upon yourself 100% of the time.

And considering prayer fails 100% of the time, you must rely upon yourself 100% of the time.

What makes you so sure about that?

So sure? All those sick, twisted parents who try to pray things like diabetes away, then end up in jail when their kid dies. Not to mention all the victims of atrocities that surely called out to god for help and were flatly ignored.

So sure? All those sick, twisted parents who try to pray things like diabetes away, then end up in jail when their kid dies. Not to mention all the victims of atrocities that surely called out to god for help and were flatly ignored.

Some people are stupid. These cases cases are rather out of the norm don't you think? I am sure many people have prayed many types of prayers and felt they were answered to satisfaction. There has been double blind studies and research on the effects of prayer on cardiac patients. Here is a link:

http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

So how do you explain all the cardiac deaths? And, no, I would not say famine, abuse, genocide and disease are rare. Not by a long shot.

So how do you explain all the cardiac deaths? And,no, I would not say famine, abuse, genocide and disease are rare. Not by a long shot.

Maybe bad medical care?. But, i thought we were talking about the parent who prayed and did not go to the doctor.

As far as famine and disease goes people are causing it not God.

Humans caused all diseases, famine, etc? Okay, then they pray for help and god does what in most cases....NOT. A. THING. If god can save the kids whose parents deny them care, why does he choose not to? He/she/it/they is (are) all powerful, right? So it's a conscious choice to let those kids suffer and die.

God is either non-existent or sits back and fully allows atrocities. I've always found it ironic that when 90 people die in plane crash, for instance, people will praise god for the one survivor. If god is responsible for the one person who survives, then he/she/it is also responsible for the 90 who died. If god is responsible for anyone whose health improves temporarily, then he is also responsible for their health when it goes south and they die.

It's like grown ups believing in Santa.

.

If god can save the kids whose parents deny them care, why does he choose not to?

Why do the parents choose this? With or without God you are responsible for your choices. God is not a wizard and does not over power a person's freewill.

Since I really do not know what a person's karma is i thank God am not the judge of such things. I believe that our lives always reflect how we live. Sure bad things happen and how you deal with it is up to you. If atrocities against children is a concern for you what are you doing about it?

Yes, people ARE and should be responsible, but you're saying god heals people, god helps people, god saves people. That's clearly not the case. If this entity exists, it's a very cold cruel entity that you're worshiping. Not a god of love by any means.

I've been a child advocate (guardian ad litem) for decades now. Trust me, god does not help abused children. In fact, it's the Christians who push child abuse the most.

If this entity exists, it's a very cold cruel entity that you're worshiping. Not a god of love by any means.

Just because what you call love does not look like God's love does not mean God is not love.

I did not get very far on my spiritual journey until I realized my standards are not the same as God's.

Getting out of God's way is still a challenge for me. Sometimes I confuse my own intentions to be God's will. Yes I will stop someone from bleeding or choking and I will pray for them as well but I have no idea what God's will is for that individual so if I am praying to get control of anything or anyone but myself and what is mine to control I could be on shaky ground.

God's love is allowing people, often times babies, to suffer unspeakable pain and suffering with no hope of intervention? No, that's not what I call love. That's not an entity I would choose to worship. It's certainly not an entity I would ever rely on (getting back on-topic).

We'll have to agree to disagree.

God's love is allowing people, often times babies, to suffer unspeakable pain and suffering with no hope of intervention?

I love the species, not the individual.

Which is why I created evolution to help improve your species. I regret the discomfort involved but surely you can see there's no alternative to pain and death if you're going to progress beyond the level of a slime-mold.

Anyway since when do atheists have a problem with evolution?

God's love is allowing people, often times babies, to suffer unspeakable pain and suffering with no hope of intervention? No, that's not what I call love.

That's what I call freewill. People are causing this unspeakable suffering. What are you doing about it? How are you going to use your God given creativity to change it? God respects your freedom more than you do obviously.

You seem to feel very passionate about these suffering children. Why don't you do something you change humanity? God will not. God will see us get what we deserve I think. Personally i am glad that God allows choice even though it is obvious that people make choices that do not seem to be very merciful or loving how else can we learn if we are not giving choice? Do you want to be over powered or do you want to be empowered? You are empowered even if you can't or won't understand that you are. Sins of omission and commission still go on today.

So infants who are denied care are causing their own pain? Diseases that come out of nowhere were all created by man. Hardly.

And AGAIN...I've served as a guardian ad litem for years now. I DO try to help the suffering of children. Protecting children in a "Christian Nation" is damn hard. Christians (most of them) are only happy when they hear the screams of tortured children.

At any rate, you've proved my point time and time again... god doesn't help anyone ever. In fact, his name is used to justify atrocities more than anything else I can think of.

So infants who are denied care are causing their own pain?

No I would say it is the people who had them or the people who are raping and pillaging the land out from under people who live close to the earth to where families go in survival mode and are forced into not being able to care for their young because their villages get destroyed.

I mean how can you come to the conclusion you are getting at? Do you really think groups of people or individuals think that way? Maybe some people but certainly not any majority. Nobody in their right mind condones suffering for anyone.

I can not tell you how many times I've heard, "We're a Christian family" when speaking for a broken and battered child. They point to the bible to justify their abuse. Over, and over, and over, again. That's where my conclusion comes from. Experience.

I think to say that man created 100% of all diseases is a stretch. While I don't think god has ever 'cured' anyone, I do think medical science has come an awful long way. In the past century alone, they doubled the life-span. If I get seriously ill, I'll choose medicine over prayer any day of the week. If a person feels better with prayer, I think that's great, but if everyone relied on prayer alone...well..overpopulation would probably come to an abrupt halt.

I'll choose medicine over prayer any day of the week. If a person feels better with prayer, I think that's great, but if everyone relied on prayer alone...well..overpopulation would probably come to an abrupt halt.

I go with prayer first medicine 2nd. I do not want to take medicine without first having prayed.

I agree, Chuck.

Actually, you're quite correct, I don't exist. I'm just a story. Mind you, you are also just a story. What exists is just biological systems to propagate us stories. Matter of fact it's all biological - physics doesn't exist either.

Listen carefully to the voices from your/our past for to ignore them is to guarantee us no future!